tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post4914337387442196321..comments2024-02-01T01:23:04.509-08:00Comments on Dolce and Namak Talk Indian Movies: In Defense of Veronica and ImtiazDolce and Namakhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13403089235872528987noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-70872695274853462152013-02-08T03:49:22.390-08:002013-02-08T03:49:22.390-08:00A lot has been discussed in the comments already, ... A lot has been discussed in the comments already, but some more points from my viewpoint:<br />1) I get what you say about this being a film about the women. In some ways, it is reminiscent of those bromances from older movies, in which the girl would be the catalyst for the movie's central conflict, and sometimes even manipulated by the evil forces to drive a wedge between our heroes. <br />Quite often, midway through the film, the girl is reduced to mere arm candy for whichever guy gets to keep her, and the focus is on how our heroes get back together.<br />Classic example: Dostana (Amitabh Bacchan, Shatrugn Sinha, Zeenat Aman)<br />Gautam here serves more or less the same purpose.<br />2) Let's suppose for a moment that the film had ended differently, with Veronica "getting the guy". Wouldn't we have then complained that the film is regressive in that once you bonk someone, the right thing to do would be to marry them?Deepti Sharmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09462873637851411701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-42468599396247843862013-01-31T14:49:12.044-08:002013-01-31T14:49:12.044-08:00Hey there, Indian male feminist,
Yeah, I guess I ...Hey there, Indian male feminist,<br /><br />Yeah, I guess I never looked at the movie much from Meera's perspective. Though I'm not sure I'd label her as unidimensional. Surely a lot of complex people do pray and are polite, no? :) And as far as the self-sacrifice goes, I'd expect any friend who is worthy of the name to do exactly what she did rather than jump into the guy's arms. I do think the movie needed a contrast between the two female leads, so her goodness may be exaggerated a bit, but then so is Veronica's "badness", so it didn't bother me at all. I'd much rather have a movie where the bad girl doesn't turn into a saint than a movie where the "good girl" smokes and drinks (gasp!) just to prove to the audience that she's "not perfect" and that she is "multidimensional". Too many of those out there as it is.<br /><br />But like I said, I never looked at the film from the point of view of "whoever gets the guy is the winner", so from that perspective it seemed somewhat irrelevant why Meera got him or how perfect she would be as a wife. Not sure if that makes any sense, but her future role as a bahu just never entered the equation for me.<br /><br />And the point about "that's the way the world is" was that it's like that everywhere. Not just in India. When the rest of the world is still not accepting this premise, I think it's unfair to ask India to be more progressive than anyone, especially given how far behind they are on much simpler gender role problems. Again, not saying it's right, just being realistic.<br /><br />As far as the Bechdel test is concerned, I can think of a lot of great movies from all over the world that don't pass it, so don't see the need to measure everything against that, but like you say, kudos for passing it, if you think it's important for a film to pass it.<br /><br />Thanks for dropping by and reminding me that I need to rewatch this at some point to see if I still feel the same way about it. :)Dolce and Namakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13403089235872528987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-89944928921870290222013-01-28T00:27:34.644-08:002013-01-28T00:27:34.644-08:00Dunno Dolce, maybe you're reading too much int...Dunno Dolce, maybe you're reading too much into this? <br /><br />"That's the way the world is" could be used as an excuse by many of your current average Indian film full of patriarchal BS and 'traditional' gender roles. <br /><br />I like the fact that it gives much more importance to the bond between two lead women, so that's a Kudos for passing the Bechdel test! :) <br /><br />However the whole polite 'traditional' Indian woman getting the man, I can't just past that, however you might dress it up. I actually don't mind much Veronica being selfish, and "slutty" (i.e. no longer qualified to be a good Bahu). But what bothered me is how Vanilla nice and 'patriarchally perfect' Meera is - it's just your one dimensional Bahu crap. Polite, self sacrificing, virgin, and hell, she prays too! OMG, isn't that awesome - just a flawless one dimensional puppet full of our 'sanskar'. It really irked me. I just couldn't put myself through that. The only decent thing was their friendship/bonding part, refreshing to see, but Meera's character ruined it for me.<br /><br />To each her/his own, I suppose. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-26041933740472771632013-01-13T10:52:49.977-08:002013-01-13T10:52:49.977-08:00@ Reema Sahay - LOL Thank you! I keep trying to ma...@ Reema Sahay - LOL Thank you! I keep trying to make him see that I'm his soul mate. Haha! Just kidding. But I do love Imtiaz Ali, always excited about what he's gonna do next.<br /><br />@ Red - Good question: why so much trivial love. I suspect the answer is: because if it were a story about two women and their friendship the Indian audiences would never pay attention? But I could be wrong...Dolce and Namakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13403089235872528987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-16701701635686880022013-01-13T10:50:22.705-08:002013-01-13T10:50:22.705-08:00@ Mette - so... have you watched it yet? :) What d...@ Mette - so... have you watched it yet? :) What did you think?<br /><br />@ Jenny - I have to agree with you on the underdeveloped scenes, I think it could have been much better balanced out if, like you say, they hadn't wasted 5 scenes on Gautam flirting and 3 songs on Veronica drinking. It's not a perfect movie by any stretch of the imagination. But I am glad you also enjoyed the relationship between the girls which was IMO the best part of the movie (and the point of it all). <br /><br />And thank you for the compliment, I never realized I did that, I just try to look for the turning points in stories and characters, so I guess that's why I always mention random little scenes that strike me as influential, if that makes any sense. :)<br /><br />@ Swati - wondering if you've seen it since you posted? Curious what you'll make of it. But glad we agree on the hypocrisy of the reviews/criticism. ;)Dolce and Namakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13403089235872528987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-10785456406572509002013-01-04T11:50:38.349-08:002013-01-04T11:50:38.349-08:00Wow, what a post. Even Imtiaz would not have been ...Wow, what a post. Even Imtiaz would not have been able to do better than this! You certainly 'get' his movies. But anyways, I loved Cocktail.Reema Sahayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11287414476458432950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-85325314108632408392012-11-21T06:21:41.134-08:002012-11-21T06:21:41.134-08:00You have right about Veronica. I feel the same. An...You have right about Veronica. I feel the same. And Deepika acted so good. Damn, this girl keeps better and better. But I have one big problem with "Cocktail"... If it's more about friendship why so much trivial love? Nice post, anyway.Madźa (Red)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17166760090795249324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-28592693180182906112012-08-30T06:28:33.070-07:002012-08-30T06:28:33.070-07:00I still havent wached Cocktail. Missed it in the t...I still havent wached Cocktail. Missed it in the theatres. But I heard so much about the film - good and bad, that I'm now dying to watch it!<br />I totally get what you are saying - we always fall in love against our better judgement. men all over the world fall for 'good' stable girls over free-spirited ones. So lets not be hypocritical. <br />And your point abt Cocktail being more about the 2 girls and their relationship had me going "Aaah!!".... because you know what? Thats what everyone has been saying (yet missing the point, strangely). Reviews and opinions that I have heard - all talk about Meera and Veronica - how sexy they are, how everyone was waiting for girl-on-girl action, how deepika is the hero of the film, how Meera is so good, and how Saif is just an appendage!! :D Swati Sapnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10542220359921937139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-68935313740260206392012-07-29T22:24:26.519-07:002012-07-29T22:24:26.519-07:00I read this post before I watched the movie, and t...I read this post before I watched the movie, and today I read it again after I watched the movie. To tell you frankly, I felt the movie was a feel good movie, but I really really wished that instead of showing how much of a flirt Gautam is or showing how Veronica is always wasted, they would have concentrated on how thier backgrounds(meera and veronica) affected them. Meera husband abandoned her, she cries in the loo and then nothing. There should have been more to it. Also, I wish more time was put into how Veronica fell for Gautam, and how Gautam fell for Meera, and how Meera fell for Gautam. I felt, all that just happenned in like 5 scenes?<br /><br />Rest I agrre, Gautam didnot fall for the perfect Indian bride, but fell for Meera when she showed a little bit of her Veronica side. And yes Veronica ending is perfect. And the relationship between the 2 girls was outstanding! <br /><br />About you take Dolce, its indeed a wonder how you pick up the most subtle but important scene. I actually looked out for them after I read your review, and yes they are important enough.Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13646466740681280522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-7368376592346363702012-07-19T13:33:11.881-07:002012-07-19T13:33:11.881-07:00I only read the beginning because I consider watch...I only read the beginning because I consider watching the movie now you said you liked it. After reading Dunk Dafts review I said I would never watch it, because he told me that the bad girl wouldn't get the guy. WHY does this always happen in Indian rom-coms?<br />Nevermind if the rest is okay, but still, I just don't get it.Mettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08094234448852441633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-16290956635502055882012-07-19T13:21:04.802-07:002012-07-19T13:21:04.802-07:00@ Paayaliya - Hey girl, I love that! One day we re...@ Paayaliya - Hey girl, I love that! One day we really should get together and write a love letter to Imtiaz and say exactly that: we'll always be there for you. :) I felt a little bit bad writing this and mostly talking about him instead of the director and the co-writer but the whole thing just has such an Imtiaz feel to it that I couldn't help it. I mean even the songs and the little moments in them. Heh! I love him. :)<br /><br />Wish I had seen it with you guys, it was pretty lonely not being able to squee about Deepika's clothes to anyone in the theatre. :P<br /><br />Thanks for stopping by! :-*Dolce and Namakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13403089235872528987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-51509362426705316582012-07-19T13:16:31.791-07:002012-07-19T13:16:31.791-07:00Hey Filmi Girl, that bit about Saif Ali Khan got a...Hey Filmi Girl, that bit about Saif Ali Khan got a really good laugh out of me!! Not that I have anything against him, I'm pretty neutral, and his age didn't bother me like it did others, but really, anyone could have played his role and the movie would have been just fine. <br /><br />I love that idea of taking away the happy ending altogether, I was thinking while watching: what if they all just get over it, and it probably would have been really cool, but I guess the set-up was such that the couple kind of needed to get together in the end (in the spirit of true love only happens once bla bla bla). Was actually thinking that in real life everyone would take a break from each other and then revisit their relationships in a year or two, and THEN maybe get together. But oh well... movies are not real life. :)<br /><br />Thanks for dropping by and yes, if you're not allergic to any of the leads, I think the movie is worth a dekho, if only for Deepika who kills it. :)Dolce and Namakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13403089235872528987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-53532821718514334322012-07-19T13:11:10.358-07:002012-07-19T13:11:10.358-07:00@ getfilmy - Hee! I love it when we agree on somet...@ getfilmy - Hee! I love it when we agree on something! :) And yes, totally in agreement about Veronica's makeover as the desi girl, it was definitely not the solution and I was glad that it didn't end up working (which would have reinforced the real stereotype that is used in most movies). <br /><br />And LOL @ your opinion of Gautam. I wasn't a big fan of him myself, but his choices made sense to me, so I guess in the end that's all that mattered for the movie to work. <br /><br />Thanks for coming by and adding your thoughts here!<br /><br />@ Anisha - you crack me up, girl! But I'm glad you saw it from a different point of view after reading this. :)Dolce and Namakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13403089235872528987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-56911677150817906392012-07-19T12:15:03.728-07:002012-07-19T12:15:03.728-07:00Yes! You've hit on several points that stood o...Yes! You've hit on several points that stood out to me as well about Cocktail, like the fact that I cared more about Veronica and Meera reconciling their friendship than I did about which one Gautam would end up with; the characterization of Meera who, shaken by what turned out to be a scam marriage, of course fell for the first guy to pay her lavish compliments; and the lovely fact of the straight-laced Meera never judging or trying to change wild-child Veronica. Poor, misunderstood Imtiaz Ali. At least he can know we've always got his back ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-51385043123613168512012-07-19T12:13:47.318-07:002012-07-19T12:13:47.318-07:00The more I hear about this film, the more I think ...The more I hear about this film, the more I think I actually might like it! Thanks for this post. :)<br /><br />I would add that perhaps the biggest tragedy of <b>Cocktail</b> is that Saifu seems to think that he was the reason it was a success when EVERYTHING I've read about it would disagree.<br /><br />I wonder how the film would have gone over if they had taken the "happy ending" out all together and just ended with the girls being friends...Filmi Girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16182245444783020664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-30077676285891630542012-07-19T11:14:41.871-07:002012-07-19T11:14:41.871-07:00Cue light bulb going off and choir in my head belt...Cue light bulb going off and choir in my head belting out a resounding, "Ohhhhhhhhhhh."<br /><br />Everyone needs to read this "un-review." :)Anishahttp://jhavanis.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3503508735843316282.post-44170076111683074512012-07-19T11:02:00.642-07:002012-07-19T11:02:00.642-07:00Yay!! Love it! I think Veronica was such a beautif...Yay!! Love it! I think Veronica was such a beautifully written, multi-layered character that it made me really really mad to see her stereotyped as a "party girl". <br /><br />And like you said, WHO CARES who got the guy?! That was so not the point, and even if it was, he didn't choose Meera because she was more desi or homely. His MOTHER had those notions - and that's understandable for her generation- not him.<br /><br />Also, the scenes where Veronica wears the salwar kameez, cooks biryani - I saw those as her irrational, immature attempts to "find stability" - I didn't see it as her really trying to convert herself into being a sati savitri. They were just moments mirroring her childish notions of handling serious relationships - not an entire character change. <br />The REAL maturity comes later.<br /><br />I didn't think she changed into a "desi" girl at the end, she just became more mature, sober, healed on the inside because of her frienships. I loved both Meera & Veronica. Gautam was another story. Frankly, he wasn't worth either girl's time. :p<br /><br />As Anisha & Bhushan were saying on twitter - the audience was being more judgmental about the characters than the film was - that for me was the greatest tragedy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com